£299 for a live AppKey?

[StefanBelo.]

My fault it was amount in Euro I paid, the 300 amount number is just number I rember to pay back in 2007, so it was roughly 300 Euro per month, from that amount I calculated subscription fee for my product, hoping to get at least 10 paying users to get fees back I had to pay to betfair.

Yes, now we communicate about market streaming problems, but the fact is that I still did not receive contact to your supervisor.
Neil, show me what you did to support my product on app directory or on forum.

I can refer to post here when I complained about your behavior when you did not want to add my product to new releases section on betfair app directory.

Couple weeks ago you deleted my posts here about bot sdk, at that time we exchanged emails as well, and I reminded you this old story, well you finally agreed that you were wrong that as a matter of fact bfexplorer for api ng is a new product, asking me to send you information you will update to app directory.

In protest I did not send anything saying that from app directory I have got 2-3 referrals per months, checking google analytics for May, I have got 0 referrals from betfair app directory.

On the other hand, for god sake Neil, you are paid to do support for software vendors, so when you agreed you did wrong back in 2014 not flagging bfexplorer as a new release you could do so now at least. You could take a new picture from my web site as anyone comparing what you have got on app directory and what is from 2014 presented on my web pages, does not correspond to reality.

Well, I wanted to ask your supervisor that and many other questions, but you did not send me contact to your supervisor.
I am just making copy of this conversation to my blog, as I believe you will delete again my posts.

Algotrader, yes I agree with you, T&C of this forum does not allow advertising, but many do so, just an example: James Butter advertising here his book: Programming for betfair, his articles or comments were not deleted but mine were deleted.

I believe you agree that there is no difference between me and James Butler, he sells his book, and says thousands of befairians bought his book and made his own betfair bots. I try to sell my trading software and offer bot sdk for free, when bot sdk is used under the terms for free use of bfexplorer bot sdk.
My posts here are deleted, and James Butler’s are not. Betfair advertise his book, but not my bfexplorer bot sdk.

Actually my posts here about bfexplorer bot sdk, express my opinion on befair behavior I have got as betfair software vendor. Back in 2010 I think, I posted request to bdp to release to their betfair app directory my bfexplorer bot sdk as official product, they refused to do so. They have got my request but up till now they did not do anything with that. For new api ng I released new bot sdk again, and where is such information mentioned about it in app directory, in listing of betfair libraries?

It is June 2016 now, 6 years back they did nothing.

[Lopiner]

My fault it was amount in Euro I paid, the 300 amount number is just number I rember to pay back in 2007, so it was roughly 300 Euro per month, from that amount I calculated subscription fee for my product, hoping to get at least 10 paying users to get fees back I had to pay to betfair.

Yes, now we communicate about market streaming problems, but the fact is that I still did not receive contact to your supervisor.
Neil, show me what you did to support my product on app directory or on forum.

I can refer to post here when I complained about your behavior when you did not want to add my product to new releases section on betfair app directory.

Couple weeks ago you deleted my posts here about bot sdk, at that time we exchanged emails as well, and I reminded you this old story, well you finally agreed that you were wrong that as a matter of fact bfexplorer for api ng is a new product, asking me to send you information you will update to app directory.

In protest I did not send anything saying that from app directory I have got 2-3 referrals per months, checking google analytics for May, I have got 0 referrals from betfair app directory.

On the other hand, for god sake Neil, you are paid to do support for software vendors, so when you agreed you did wrong back in 2014 not flagging bfexplorer as a new release you could do so now at least. You could take a new picture from my web site as anyone comparing what you have got on app directory and what is from 2014 presented on my web pages, does not correspond to reality.

Well, I wanted to ask your supervisor that and many other questions, but you did not send me contact to your supervisor.
I am just making copy of this conversation to my blog, as I believe you will delete again my posts.

Algotrader, yes I agree with you, T&C of this forum does not allow advertising, but many do so, just an example: James Butter advertising here his book: Programming for betfair, his articles or comments were not deleted but mine were deleted.

I believe you agree that there is no difference between me and James Butler, he sells his book, and says thousands of befairians bought his book and made his own betfair bots. I try to sell my trading software and offer bot sdk for free, when bot sdk is used under the terms for free use of bfexplorer bot sdk.
My posts here are deleted, and James Butler’s are not. Betfair advertise his book, but not my bfexplorer bot sdk.

Actually my posts here about bfexplorer bot sdk, express my opinion on befair behavior I have got as betfair software vendor. Back in 2010 I think, I posted request to bdp to release to their betfair app directory my bfexplorer bot sdk as official product, they refused to do so. They have got my request but up till now they did not do anything with that. For new api ng I released new bot sdk again, and where is such information mentioned about it in app directory, in listing of betfair libraries?

It is June 2016 now, 6 years back they did nothing.

Hi STEFANBELO,

We all understand that you may being treated unfairly and that you want to speak out but please try to stay on topic (although i must say we all know you sometimes push it). Voicing your differences here relating other issues will not help you or other users that are looking for information.

The £299 fee is in fact an interesting issue that affects many users, lets try to discuss that.

[AlgoTrader]

Stefan, please reduce the level of aggression in your posts, both in advertising your product and discussions with Betfair support. James Butler posts are usually helpful and humble, some unobtrusive advertising when mentioned relevantly can be accepted. Your product is not the case. Let's go back to the 300 pound discussion

[StefanBelo.]

Stefan, please reduce the level of aggression in your posts, both in advertising your product and discussions with Betfair support. James Butler posts are usually helpful and humble, some unobtrusive advertising when mentioned relevantly can be accepted. Your product is not the case. Let's go back to the 300 pound discussion

Algo, on my blog you can find what Neil deleted. English, is foreign language for me, so please show me where I am aggressive in my opinions, all what I stated are facts, and if betfair wants to solve this issue and the old one back from 2010 I think, about publishing my bfexplorer bot sdk, then they would simply did/do what I asked them for, to publish bfexplorer bot sdk to betfair app directory, and the case is solved!

Once again, it is June 2016, 6 years after, nothing was done. At that time I exchange quite a lot of emails with them.

Your library is included in the list, but not mine, and as I said I offer it for free under my T&C, so why is not in the list as it is your library?

[StefanBelo.]

Lopiner, I agree with betfair to introduce this fee, because letting “amateurs” programmers to misused betfair api is pain for all of us.

Thanks to betfair support and I paid for that support, I had to find my way to repay those 200 GBP monthly fees, so I did/do bespoke app development as freelancer, and many times I was confronted with very bad code, when continue working on someone else source code.

Well, of course I did/do use my bot sdk for such projects, but on many projects I had to read other programmers source code, and that is not just about too frequently requesting data from betfair, but in most cases data which are actually not used.
At the moment I am discussing issues with streaming service, and I really cannot realize what such “amateurs” programmers will do with this api.

[zeal]

StefanBelo
For example I am an amateur programmer. As I see, you appreciate a nice code more than a great idea. The amateur's code was never written for the pros. If it's hard to you check and help them with good advice, than maybe this job is not the best for you.
The only reason why you agree with this fee is that you think you would be in better position with less amateurs. And I can understand that, but I don't like it. If we all want bigger and more liquid markets, than it is necessary to support the amateur coders, otherwise this site will became an average gambling site.

[StefanBelo.]

StefanBelo
For example I am an amateur programmer. As I see, you appreciate a nice code more than a great idea. The amateur's code was never written for the pros. If it's hard to you check and help them with good advice, than maybe this job is not the best for you.
The only reason why you agree with this fee is that you think you would be in better position with less amateurs. And I can understand that, but I don't like it. If we all want bigger and more liquid markets, than it is necessary to support the amateur coders, otherwise this site will became an average gambling site.

I think when executing trading bots there is in our interest betfair api will serve in reasonable response time, without any problems, or downtimes which happens from time to time.

Betfair gave access for free to too many who just collect data, misused their api by different ways, and actually do not add any liquidity to betfair markets.

I do not say anything about nice looking code, and you actually do not know anything about my bot sdk, because it is aimed to those amateurs programmers who actually do not need to learn
anything about betfair api to build bot strategies.

Yes, you are absolutely right, in more cases it is not about programming knowledge but about strategies you are able to execute.

[zeal]

So we have figured out: The Betfair should offer correct historical data for the developers and the API would be faster.
I was looking for this about a year ago, but I have never find a good and free one, so I had to give up some ideas and find others. I can imagine a stream-like historical data with perfect time stamps. That would bring motion in a quiet life.
But back to the topic: When I started trading at this site it seemed really (bet)fair. Yepp, I truly believed it. Niel was always answered my dumb questions so I was able to became a very small fish in the tank. I can tell you I enjoy swimming, but with this fee I would not even think for a second to get wet. I don't know what other newbies thinking about this, but 6% rake should be enough to run the site.

[Nick JD]

This thread's both a drifter and a steamer! I must admit to reading it with a smirk for one major reason: we're all here in an attempt to procure cash from thin-air (or, in reality, fleece mug punters and people who've yet to get to their feet). But we quickly forget that, as we trial System # 87 with our fingers crossed...

Were we (the members of this forum, avidly helping each other out) sitting on the board of Betfair, lucky enough to have thought up and executed such a wonderful idea as a betting exchange, we'd be itching to generate as much blood from this stone as is absolutely possible. It's the duty of any capitalist in the 21st century: bleed it dry!

Is this a Golden Goose situation? I don't think so.

We're trying (some failing; some succeeding) to take money from fools - the central epithet of bookmaking. Shouldn't we give some concession to Betfair for doing the same thing? Since I'm in a mood for metaphors: this thread seems to confer there's honour among thieves.

My only concern here is that decisions high up may eventually lead to the demise of Betfair such that a competitor gains an equal footing in the market and we have to re-write our bots. However, I don't think this decision to charge for app keys was done without this consideration in mind. Charging for app keys must be net-positive for Betfair or they would not do it, just like one of the many if conditions in our algorithms...

[bnl]

but 6% rake should be enough to run the site.

I find it odd to scare more developers away. After all, the higher turnover, the higher is betfair commission - no matter how the bets were placed.

Surely, it must be better for Betfair to have more bets matched and get some commission from it, than to create startup hurdles for the hobby programmer ?
Or is there a certain kind of applications that is preferred by Betfair?
As in applications directed at 3rd party rather than the local lonely bot ?

/Björn

[BetfairDeveloperProgram]

Hi Zeal,

So we have figured out: The Betfair should offer correct historical data for the developers and the API would be faster.
I can imagine a stream-like historical data with perfect time stamps. That would bring motion in a quiet life.

This is something we are planning but don't have an ETA for the API roadmap yet. You can see an example of the draft data specification via http://data.betfair.com/ in the file "Cheltenham - 11 March 2015 - 11 March 2015" under Specials. Please take a look and let us know if you have any feedback.

Thanks

Neil

[zeal]

Hi Zeal,



This is something we are planning but don't have an ETA for the API roadmap yet. You can see an example of the draft data specification via http://data.betfair.com/ ... Please take a look and let us know if you have any feedback.

Thanks

Neil

Hello Niel!

Thank you for asking! I am familiar with these databases. I have already checked them. The time-spamp is necessary most of the cases, but unfortunately it has got limited accessibility. Of course, it was O.K. when this site was started, but the times are changing:
- 10 years ago nobody thought the people like me will be able to analyse big data with self written AIs, but it just happened.
- Beneath this years the (stock) exchanges (through the brokers) started to give more and more free historical data to the public, because they realised one pure API is not the full survice anymore. One decades ago it was hard to get those data files. It was a treasure. Today anyone can download it within minutes.
(+1 For example one idea: With a well organized data structure, monthly updated and shared via torrent could be a solution. It would be easy to do and would not need expensive resources on your side. The API servers would be lightened. More costumers would join to the betfair dev. program, liquidity would increase and so on...)
I will use the historical data files anyway, but the betfair is the biggest bet exchange, so it has to have the best data service too.

[subversion]

Yep, I've just come back from a few months break from Betfair, and am now getting 'INVALID_APP_KEY' error when trying to use my old App Key.

If I have to pay £299 to use my old personal API programs, then I guess its no more Betfair for me.

[subversion]

Fixed now, thanks!

[jimcary]

Hello,

I am from india. and i have same issue live key deactivated. and i ready pay 299. but bdp team says " Unfortunately, the use or generation of live application keys are no longer permitted in the country you are operating from."

so how i can join with my own program.

is there any solution for this.



regards